Thanks for listening to The Fat Psychologist Podcast. Join me to decode wellbeing research so it can have a real impact in our lives. Let's make decisions based on information we understand, not based what others say we should think of ourselves. I will explore themes that have been important in my life, as I search for happiness and belonging. This is our journey, I would love you to contribute too!

The Fat Psychologist Podcast

Laugh out loud:
stand-up comedy with Sheri Sankey

 Laugh when everybody is sad, laugh for laughter's own sake.

Season 1 Episode 5

In this episode

Ninna and Sheri explore the power and necessity of laughter, especially in times of sadness. Ninna emphasizes the importance of laughing for its own sake and finding moments of joy even in difficult circumstances.

Guests

Sheri Sankey is an amateur comedian and full time Assistant Professor. She is an ambitious and results-driven educational professional who enjoys a challenge. Sheri is an excellent communicator with experience in business analysis, systems analysis, project management, computer science, training and education.

She has been a project manager, in full or part, for almost twenty years. She has worked on projects ranging from event supply acquisition, software implementation, website development, academic development and business change. She knows that understanding the problem, and clearly defining project benefits, leads to the greatest successes in any organisation.

Ninna Makrinov, aka The Fat Psychologist, is a teacher, trainer, coach and the author of The Fat Psychologist Podcast. A critical thinker by nature, Ninna is an activist who questions knowledge from a feminist, fat inclusive, disability informed, anti-racist perspective. By day, Ninna works as Assistant Professor (Research Methods) at the University of Warwick and Chair of Governors in two Birmingham Primary Schools. She has been an academic in Chile, Mexico and the UK. Ninna is passionate about the development and well-being of people and the organisations they are part of.

Ninna is a Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. She holds a BSc Psychology and Professional Title in Organisational Psychology from Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile, an MSc in Occupational Health Psychology from The University of Nottingham and a Masters in Business Administration from Tecnológico de Monterrey. She has most recently completed the Postgraduate Award (PGA) Curriculum Design in Higher Education and the PGA Technology Enhanced Learning at The University of Warwick.

In this episode, we talked about:

Stand-up comedy and comedians (in the order we mentioned them)
Bright Club
Ultra Comedy
Sarah Millican
 George Carlin
Richard Pryor
Jo Brand
Hannah Gadsby

Videos
Jappening Con Ja [RIE] 1978 (Original Jorge Pedreros) - Laugh, the song Ninna translated
Emilie Wapnick: Why some of us don't have one true calling | TED Talk

Methods
Alba Method Association | Alba Emoting
Laughter Yoga International: Promoting Health, Happiness, and Peace Through Laughter
Strength-Based Approach? Positive Psychology

Academic Articles
Tunaligil, V. (2025). The Mighty Powers of Chuckles, Giggles, Guffaws: The Public Health Benefits of Laughter, Extensive Reviews, 5 (1), 4–16, Feb. 2025. https://doi.org/10.21467/exr.5.1.9172

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ninna Hi, I am Ninna Makrinov. I am a psychologist, and yes, I am fat. I am The Fat Psychologist. I love who I am. In fact, I want everyone to embrace who they are. Fat or skinny, gay or straight, white, black or brown, funny or boring, whatever. Just be you. This sounds easy. Doing it is hard. That's where my podcast comes in.

[00:00:26] So welcome to The Fat Psychologist Podcast. Join me to the code wellbeing research so it can have a real impact in our lives. Let's make decisions based on information we understand and question, not on what others say we should think of ourselves. In this series, I explore how we can be happy at any size.

[00:00:47] Inclusivity is at the heart of everything I do. Every word is captured with care. You will find precise transcripts on my website and human checked captions [00:01:00] wherever you listen. If you like my podcast, subscribe and share with your friends. You can also find me on Instagram at The Fat Psychologist.

The Power of Humor and Laughter

[00:01:08] Today I'm talking about humor and laughter.

[00:01:12] When I was thinking of humor, laughter, and happiness, one of the things that came to mind was a show that was on TV when I was a child. It started recording on the year I was born, 1978. This is a show that was very popular in Chile for many years. I'm not sure I liked the show itself, at least not all of it. But I loved the opening song. I've translated it roughly. And it says this:

[00:01:43] Life's most important thing is smiling at the world with optimism and faith. If you have problems or sorrows of love, raise your forehead and laugh 'cause that is best. Laugh when everybody is sad, laugh for laughter's own sake. Only in this way, [00:02:00] happy you will be. You must turn your life to laughter and be free. Laugh out loud and infect your joy. Laugh harder and harder each time. If you misstep and suffering it brings, you must ignore it and smile again.

[00:02:15] In addition, laughter has been really important to me in various times of my life. I never knew if there's an evidence base for these practices.

[00:02:23] Laughter Yoga is brilliant. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it would probably be very different to your idea of yoga. So people just gather together and do some very relaxed movements that simulate laughter by saying the mantra, which is, ha ha, ha. Actually just saying it makes me laugh like in a positive way.

[00:02:45] And the other aspect that was very important to me in terms of laughter is my understanding of emotions. And there's one particular approach which I will cover in other episodes called Alba Emoting, which [00:03:00] poses that there are a series of basic emotions, one of which is happiness. I can use these techniques to just laugh out loud. Let me see if I can do it live with you now.

[00:03:18] Yes, I can. I can still do it. I love this. So I went to training, very real serious training. This is one of my top tools when I'm not feeling well, there's no reason, I don't need to think about anything. I just do my posture and my breathing and I can laugh. How does laughter help you in life?

[00:03:42] One of the easiest ways, I think, to click with laughter is to listen to funny people and be laughing with others. Hence, standup comedy can be really helpful when we think about laughter.

03:58 Sheri's Standup Comedy Journey

[00:03:58] Joining me today [00:04:00] is my very good friend Sheri, who has just started doing some standup, and I thought, who best to talk about laughter than Sheri?

[00:04:10] I was thinking that we could have a fun conversation about humor, laughter, and if you are willing to share, talk about life in general, but particularly what motivated you to start standup comedy, what you learned so far.

[00:04:24] Sheri, would you like to introduce yourself?

[00:04:26] Sheri: Yeah, my name is Sheri Sankey. I'm not really sure how I describe myself to other people. That's actually one of the things I struggle with.

[00:04:33] Ninna: Can you describe yourself? From a physical perspective,

[00:04:37] Sheri: I'm gonna say, uh, I'm five foot five. What is that? 165 centimeters? Current weight is probably about 99 kilos, so what am I wearing now? Probably size 20. So I'm not as thin as some people. I'm not as heavy as other people. I also, I stretch every day, it's not like I'm not exercising. I've got green eyes. my hair comes out of a [00:05:00] bottle these days. I was actually born blonde and now if I put blonde on my hair, it just goes red. My dad was a ginger, so I think it just kind of defaults that direction. Uh, anything else? Um, yeah, I probably look what they describe as Midwestern, but with glasses.

[00:05:16] So do I look like a kind of a, you know, assistant professor type? Yeah, I probably really do.

[00:05:24] Thinking about standup. I've been teaching for nearly 40 years, and if you look at standup comedy, it is filled with teachers, not just teachers, doctors and other kinds of what we would call professionals.

[00:05:36] and I think, you know, comedy they say is built on pain. I think there's something in that, but I think there's also something in, if you're a teacher or something like that where you're in front of other people, it's a performance art. And maybe we're just performers who aren't on a stage, maybe it's just a different stage.

[00:05:51] Ninna: I would agree with that a lot. 'cause like I actually love being on stage when I'm teaching or when I'm public speaking. I don't know if you come across [00:06:00] strengths, profiles and strengths approaches to personality.

[00:06:04] Sheri: Okay. Probably not in that format. No. Carry on.

[00:06:07] Ninna: There's research in positive psychology that tries to establish rather than what we don't do well, what we do well. And the idea is that we should function based on the things we do well. So I've done those assessments a few times. And actually my weakness so just leave it, is humor.

[00:06:25] I find that really hard, but actually one of my strengths is learning new things. So I wanna learn standup comedy just because I love to develop and learn stuff that I find hard, but, but I completely agree with you.

[00:06:36] so tell us what led you to stand up?

[00:06:38] Sheri: Okay. Well, I had two separate opportunities separated by years, that gave me the opportunity to have a go.

[00:06:45] And the first one is something called Bright Club. This is group of people. They get together and they put on standup shows with academics at different universities. I guess it was 2016, 2017. I was trying to actually find the link for you.

[00:06:57] Ninna: I'll put it on the show notes.

[00:06:59] Sheri: And so you went to kind of a training, couple of training sessions, and then an hour before you did a kind of a dry run. Now, in that particular instance I didn't think I was the funniest person on the night, but I probably was the funniest person in the show. Because, they had two chaps. One who was from the art school. He was just so funny. But he froze in front of the audience. And I think that's one of the big problems with comedies. You want to be funny, you've got this, you know, I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna be Sarah Millican and you turn out that you can't remember your own name because you know, you can't see what you're looking at in front of you. I felt like I had a good night. And that was the only opportunity I had for a really long time.

[00:07:37] And then. Two things kind of happened last summer simultaneously.

[00:07:41] One, I had been hassling the pub where I go to. I've been going there for a very long time and I said, you know, you do all these open mic nights for music, but you don't do it for comedy. And they consistently said no. And then Emma said, actually we'd like to consider doing it. Would you be willing to participate? I'm like, that's terrific, sounds like fun. [00:08:00]

[00:08:00] And almost at the same time, there's something called Ultra Comedy and it's just starting again now in Birmingham. And it's eight weeks or 10 weeks, something like that of comedy training. It's free, but you have to do fundraising. So you have to sell tickets for people to go to the show 'cause they need an audience and you also have to do fundraising for charity as kind of incentive. So that's how they make their money and pay for the the comedy teachers and so on.

[00:08:24] Our guy was a guy called Tom Short. He was really fun. I'm still in regular, almost daily touch with the group of people who I worked with. Then, you yourself went to that performance and as you saw...

[00:08:35] It was super funny. Some people and including you were really funny.

[00:08:39] Funny, but I'm really good in front of an audience, like at work, but I think you have to kind of get used to the difference between teaching and and presenting in a comedy way because you're trying to present this exaggerated version of yourself, but you have to be true to yourself. If you try to fake it comedy isn't funny. And that's the problem, you kind of trip over yourself on stage. So for [00:09:00] example, when I look at the pictures and the video, it makes you look like you've got all the space on stage. You didn't have two feet square, you couldn't move. The light was right in our eyes... it was really, uh, and it, and it's funny 'cause I was so busy, I was so involved taking pictures of other people, I wasn't really thinking about my own set, but that was only kind of the first three. I did think everybody was, most of the people were really funny on the day.

[00:09:21] What have I learned is that it's really hard work to write comedy because if you're doing a standup, you're trying to present yourself. But what it looks like on paper isn't always the same way it plays for the audience. Or I might say a joke to one person, but another person doesn't necessarily laugh at it.

[00:09:36] Ninna: So what are the kinds of comedy or styles that there are and what do you like to do?

[00:09:44] Sheri: I've got kind of, kind of some clean comedy and I really try hard to do that, but my natural territory is probably more George Carlin, Richard Pryor, these are not clean people. These are potty mouths. And I kind of like that kind of comedy, but you can't always do that.

Americana: Being a migrant

[00:09:58] I think the problem I have here, [00:10:00] you and I are both, well, we can only call it immigrants in this country.

[00:10:03] Ninna: We are immigrants. Yeah.

[00:10:05] Sheri: Yeah. With that in mind, when you're going in front of a different audience, I mean an audience that's culturally different, especially in a situation where they're watching the news the same as everybody else.

[00:10:15] So when I'm getting on stage now, I really dunno how people are interpreting my presence. but that means I can only do so much of that kind of Americana, I'll call it Americana. And then I have to touch another subject.

[00:10:28] Ninna: When you talk to me about your process, it reminded me of when we were chatting, on chat rather than talking and, I was talking about something serious, and you just went, "what's in the border?

[00:10:39] Sheri: What borders on insanity. Yeah. Mexico.

[00:10:43] Ninna: you had to explain it. And now I think it's hilarious.

[00:10:46] Sheri: Yeah. But do you know, I think that's, that's another thing is your timing has gotta be right with comedy.

A bit of politics

[00:10:51] When, when all this stuff, when January 20th happened and suddenly the country, I thought I knew at least some of [00:11:00] what I knew turned into, uh, well, I don't know what you wanna call this right now. I'm not gonna go too far that way right now. But I immediately went into comedy in that space. And the trouble is, is what was happening was super obvious to me, but it wasn't really on the BBC, it wasn't, in fact, what was weird about it is when I first found out about it, it was on the news and then it disappeared for three months.

[00:11:21] Ninna: So what are you talking about?. Because I think I know but I'm not sure the audience does.

[00:11:23] Sheri: Lots of things. Lots of things happened, but I knew that the United States was in genuine trouble. I mean, genuine, I cannot believe this is happening trouble, when Elon Musk, went into the treasury at five 30 on a Friday afternoon, and everybody is supposed to be going home and started tapping into the systems.

[00:11:42] That happened sometime in like a week or so after Donald Trump came in office. and immediately my first response is, where is the Congress? You know, they, the only people who can check the power of the President are those two sources.

[00:11:54] One is the Congress and the other is the military against enemies, foreign and domestic. [00:12:00] I think people have forgotten that second part. And what you don't wanna do is say that somebody's evil because they don't agree with you politically, I don't have a problem with disagreeing with people politically.

[00:12:10] I do have a problem with the fact that A, there's not a GDPR in the US. So, you know, even those simple data protections were overturned and the consequences people don't really understand. And so I think that's the other thing. I work in information systems.

Exploring Multipotentiality and Career Shifts

[00:12:27] I think that's another thing in a way you and I have in common. We have portfolio careers. It's like we just jump from one thing to another, like our attention span or at least my attention span sometimes it's like now I'm doing this and now knowing the other thing.

[00:12:42] And now, so I'm like, yeah, I'm a psychologist and I've been a psychologist for a really long time, but I actually have worked in marketing, currently AI. It's like, okay, what's what I'm gonna do next? I'm having a podcast.

[00:12:54] And that reminds me of a Ted Talk I listened to a really long time ago, I think it was [00:13:00] recorded in 2015 by Emilie Wapnick that talked about why some of us find it hard to focus on just one specific career. And I really like the fact that she used this term multipotentialite as our ability to move from one thing to another to learn new things as a superpower, rather than something that wasn't good. And I think that's something that I would like us all to continue thinking about because whatever age we are, whatever stories we've had, whatever our life has been, we can always start again. We can always start something new. We can always refind passion.

[00:13:38] I think again, in our stories, in yours and mine, we can really see that that is possible. And that we can actually start something at any age, and particularly because so many successful business people have actually started their businesses after the age of 40. [00:14:00] So we're never too late to start.

[00:14:02] And I suppose in a way that also reflects your, oh, I'm now going to try comedy.

[00:14:07] Sheri: I am flighty in that I like lots of different things, but they will tend to have weave in and out of my life. It's not that they disappear completely. I've been doing photography since I was, I don't know, 10 or 12. and I've got pictures even now from, from all that time, uh, and sort of seriously got into it with digital stuff. I've always done needle work and sewing. My grandmother was a seamstress and there'll be fits I'll go through six weeks, six months of doing this stuff every day and then I won't touch it for years. But, you know, it's still there. And I think it's great when you have those kind skills, you can look at something and say, I don't like that, I can fix it and make it different. I did that with woodworking. I'm also amateur astronomer, I'm still learning how to do that, but I'm just as happy going outside and go, Ooh, look pretty stars.

[00:14:51] So there are things that even in out of my life and things I've always been very, very consistently interested in. But I do skip and jump sometimes. I just say, well, I get really into [00:15:00] something and then I'll kind of walk away from it for a while.

[00:15:02] Comedy hasn't really been that way. It's kind of snuck up on me over years and I think that's, now I'm thinking comedy's a good outlet and it is something can actually be taught and learned and practiced and you improve that.

[00:15:16] I am so much more comfortable on stage now than I was. What I know about myself though is as much as I would like, I love the idea of Sarah Millican, but actually I'm not sure I would be suited to that life. And what this has shown me is I'm not sure I would call a career change that wouldn't be fair. At this point in time I am looking perhaps for change of directions, and I think this is one of those things. but my interest in comedy is not starting now. That's just when I got the opportunities.

[00:15:43] I have been listening to standup comedy since I was 10, and it was very much a part of, particularly when I lived with my dad as a young adult, that was always part of what as a family, we kind of liked together. Before I moved to the UK I saw some live comedy in the US. Of [00:16:00] course, I come from Los Angeles, that's very available, but it's a long way away from where I lived in the Valley, so that wasn't kind of a daily thing.

[00:16:06] I think here it's much easier to access live performances because you've got trains and things like that that can take you to London and Birmingham and all these wonderful places.

The West Midlands are great

[00:16:16] And we're very lucky here. I live in Wolverhampton and this is actually a really great place for performances, particularly now. We're getting really big names here. So we get to get out a lot at night now, but we didn't use to do that.

[00:16:28] Ninna: I really like Birmingham too. There's so much to do, but nights horror. I'm a complete morning person. I used to go dancing a lot when I was younger, dancing salsa. I wanna go back to that, but I definitely just go to this lovely place, a community hall in Coventry, Coventry Central Hall where there is an afternoon, like six pm dance salsa party and salsa classes, although I don't really need the class, but it's so much fun. That's kind of my idea of a night out, six to eight [00:17:00] pm then go to bed at nine.

[00:17:03] Sheri: But that's the thing it's out at night. I cannot see myself even for lots and lots of money traveling around the world. Doing standup all the time. Not because I really don't enjoy standup, but because I just can't imagine the lifestyle that would go along with it, I'm too tired. I'm too tired to do that sort of thing. But where I think it has taken me is a place where I like to write comedy and I would think I'd be brilliant writing for other people. I've occasionally met somebody where I said, please let me write comedy for you 'cause I think I can do a good job of that.

[00:17:30] Something that would look good coming out of them.

Enjoying the process and the destination

[00:17:33] Ninna: What is it that you enjoy about watching comedy to start with and then performing and then writing? 'cause they're different.

[00:17:40] Sheri: Yeah. Okay. That's fair. Um, I like watching it because I like to laugh. Look, I got, if all I gotta do, if I wanna cry or whatever like that, I watch TV news.

[00:17:49] I'll sometimes watch a period drama. I actually don't like dark and shoot 'em up things, if there's a lot of guns and stuff like that. I have zero interest. If I'm in a cinema and I'm trapped by [00:18:00] that noise, that sound, I, have ADHD and I am really sensitive to some of that input. If I get overwhelmed by it, I walk out. But a live performance or a live band or something like that where you have a little bit of that detachment, I think I quite like that better.

[00:18:15] I think also why did I, I, you know, I hadn't really thought about it till you asked this question now. Why was that such a part of my childhood when a lot of people I knew then didn't really watch comedy? I think it was because cancer entered my family's life from the time I was quite young. And I think that's one of the ways that my dad dealt with it. And it's not hit our generation yet. Uh, but I think that was his, you know he had plenty of time for the drama, he had plenty of time to hear of the doctor shows. He had plenty of time to deal with ambulances and police and things like that. I think he just found other ways to kind of escape the world and laughing at it was one of his ways of doing so. And I suppose it's just an inherited trait from there.

[00:18:56] But being able to deliver it, I think part of that's part of that's the [00:19:00] job. if you teach for very long and you don't have a sense of humor, you'll crack up. You've gotta know that's true. Uh, and it maybe that's it. Normally when I'm in front of an audience, I am trying to get their attention. And make them listen. I think with comedy, people are willing to listen to start with.

[00:19:16] If they think you're bad, they'll let you know about it. But I think it gives you the opportunity in a very short space to get quite a lot of good positive feedback, unless you get it wrong, and, and without affecting the whole rest of your life. I think it's very different from lecturing that way.

[00:19:33] I'm not as spontaneous as a comic, as I've seen some other people. I think it's a matter of practice. That's my next kind of course will be improv. Possibly MC, maybe I'd be a better MC supporting other comics. I don't really know. But that's the thing is I'm kind of exploring the space because I think I wanna do it, but I can't imagine wanting to do it at scale.

[00:19:51] I like writing it because writing is something I've always done as stress relief, as interest or whatever like that my whole life. Actually, [00:20:00] I enjoy the writing process so much. I enjoy the performing process, but probably at least as much learning what the skill is there.

[00:20:08] Ninna: So I think with the things that you're saying, there's various reflections. And one of the things that at the very end you're talking about enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. And I think that's so important, isn't it? That we do things for pure enjoyment, whatever that is.

[00:20:23] So it doesn't need to be productive or it doesn't need to be a career. Um, um, yeah, I tend to enjoy things that are sometimes very productive. So I am really enjoying doing this podcast. It's like so much fun. I'm talking to lot's of people. Potentially being heard. And actually today I got an email from someone at work going, I was on holiday and I found this podcast called The Fat Psychologist, and then I realized it was you... and it was so lovely.

[00:20:49] Sheri: Oh, marvelous.

[00:20:50] Ninna: I know. And I'm like, okay, this is serendipity now. So I think an element of happiness has to do with that. It's just doing some stuff we like, even if that stuff we like is anything: gardening, lying in bed, watching TV once in a while. I really believe that watching too much TV cannot bring us deep enjoyment, but that's just me. Maybe some people do get that. I just find it a bit boring. but being in contact with people, being in contact with nature is known to have these positive effects.

[00:21:22] And there's a lot of research that shows this connection between wellbeing and laughter.

The Impact of Laughter on Wellbeing

[00:21:28] For example, Verda Tunaligil and apologies if I'm mispronouncing this, has just very recently published an article on called The Mighty Powers of Chuckles, Giggles and Guffaws, the Public Health Benefits of Laughter. This is published in February, 2025, so really new, and she's looking at the evidence we have of the relationship between laughter and health. The evidence shows that laughter yoga and other laughter programs can promote mental health. It doesn't surprise me at all. And also that there are positive impacts in the way we think. So it might lower the risk of dementia or also health elements like physical health such as cardiovascular health And what's even more interesting to me is that there's more research being done on laughter in the past few years than it has ever been done before. So we looked down on this and now we're realizing that actually it is a very powerful tool for mental health.

[00:22:39] And that leads me back to what you were saying about your dad and how going through a really tough period then laughter was a way of coping, isn't it?

[00:22:50] Sheri: Hmm. Well that's where I think pain and comedy really do have a relationship to each other.

[00:22:55] But one of the things they teach you on the comedy course is you can't aim [00:23:00] laughing at somebody else. You can't punch down if you're gonna laugh. You gotta laugh at yourself. And I guess that's where weight and all this kind of comes maybe back into it, maybe, why don't I wanna travel the world like that?

The pressure to be thin: TV and expectations

[00:23:11] Well, part of it is because my personality and I am too tired. But I think I will never, have you ever seen people from television? I've met a lot of television people. I've been very lucky in my life to have met a lot of famous people. and they are tall and I'm a short ass. And if you've got any kind of weight on television, you're gonna look even bigger. It's not the same as like this, this is not as bad for you. You go on TV though, it shows everything and they can do a lot to kind of hide things. But I'm not tall enough. To be one of those people.

[00:23:44] That's not to say that there aren't exceptions. Joe Brand, if I go out there, I can find women who kind of represent me in the comedy scene. But we are rare. It's actually much easier.

[00:23:53] I don't know if you know this, to get a standup set at any kind of comedy club, any place if I want to perform as a woman, [00:24:00] because there are so many fewer of us.

Discrimination and power

[00:24:01] Ninna: I didn't know that. Based on some of the things you're saying now and things you said before, the other thing that's coming to my head is power . You said we're migrants. Yes, we are. And very powerful migrants. 'cause we're very white and in a way people don't notice we're migrants until we speak.

[00:24:17] And then, ah, then they're going like, Ooh, but where are you really from?

[00:24:24] Sheri: Is that an American accent? Um, do I detect a twang there? You know, I've had it said to me, I don't know how many different ways. And for the most part it's very friendly and, and happy. Not always. I've had a few incidents where people were not so nice about it, but do you know what, they don't, they're not responding to me. They're responding to what they see on the news. And I don't take it personally 'cause it's not meant that way. I mean, they try to mean it that way, but I know they don't because how could they, they don't know anything about me.

[00:24:52] Ninna: That's super insightful and I think that to me, that's a really important message for all of us. ' cause a lot of times when I'm [00:25:00] scared of what others might think, or sometimes... no one believes this, but when I was very young, I was terrified of presenting in public. Now I absolutely adore it. And prior to that, terrified had to do with the fact that in my head I was reading people's minds and they were all thinking that I was horrible.

[00:25:19] Yeah. Which obviously it's impossible to know. Like now my approach is you're clearly thinking I'm the best teacher in the world, so I'm amazing. If they didn't ask questions, it's because I was very clear.

[00:25:32] But other people have that more, much more often, you know? And the same with, comedy . Not the comedy I watch. 'cause the standup comedy I tend to watch is very political, it's people who are in the margins.

[00:25:48] And so I, when you say, oh, there's not very many people who are fat or who are, um, not tall in this, and I'm like, actually most of the comedians I know are either fat or short or women or [00:26:00] black.

[00:26:01] Sheri: Yeah. I'll tell you on this, my favourite immigrant story, because I haven't turned this into standup yet and I don't really know how to, but I want to, because this illustrated to me what everything with Brexit was about. Okay. I have a very particular view on Brexit because I work in supply chains and I also come from the United States, and I know that if you're gonna compete against the United States and or China, you've gotta be in a big club. Okay. That's just a simple numbers game.

[00:26:28] I lived here as a non-citizen for many, many years. 30 people become a citizen once a month in Wolverhampton. The mayor goes, it's all a very formal thing. At the time, picture Queen Elizabeth on the wall. It's all very formal. On the way to the ceremony, took the taxi. My husband and my sons were in the car with us. We were all dressed up. On the way. Hey, we were talking about Brexit. He said, what do you think about Brexit?

[00:26:51] And I was like, well, I don't, you know, I, it's, I don't think it's a particularly good idea. And he went on about immigrants and I said, well, but I'm an immigrant. And he says, oh, but you're the right [00:27:00] kind of immigrant. I'm glad my kids saw that because I wanted them to understand what it was about. And that was code for you're white, you're not brown.

[00:27:10] Ninna: Yeah, I know. That's happened to me so often as well, particularly when I'm campaigning. I am a member of the Labour Party in the UK. I stood for council a few years ago, and when I was door knocking, most people were lovely. However, in these conversations of what they wanted from the country, lots of people would say, no, I'm not voting Labour because they're pro-immigration.

[00:27:31] And I'm like, oh, but I'm a migrant. And the response would be exactly that. Oh, but we don't mean you love. And in my head I'm going like, what? Because I'm white? And a few times I did go back to, so what what kind of migrants?

[00:27:47] I clearly see what you're saying.

[00:27:49] Sheri: The reason I thought that that was so funny. In context is because he didn't go to the citizenship ceremony, but I did. There were about three Europeans at my ceremony, there were two North Americans and everybody else was from the Commonwealth in some shade of brown. It was a beautiful event.

[00:28:08] I think it's a funny story because the irony of it. And yet at the same time, you know, I get asked every week, so you're not from round here, are you?

[00:28:16] Ninna: Nope. Not from around here.

[00:28:18] Sheri: Not from around here. But my family does originally on both sides come from Britain. My husband and I, our families both lived on the same road at the same period of time, about a hundred years, a hundred and some odd years ago.

[00:28:29] Ninna: No way!

[00:28:29] Sheri: A hundred houses away. They probably didn't even see any other than a nodding acquaintance, I'm sure, but it's just ironic how it all kind of comes back.

Wellbeing as a comedian

[00:28:37] Ninna: Can I go back to the idea of humor and wellbeing? When I was looking at the research one of the things that I saw was this discussion of different types of humour and how that then connects to wellbeing or not.

[00:28:51] I was wondering what your opinion is in terms of these different kinds of humour and what effect they might have on the comedian. Because I suppose if you're [00:29:00] doing self-deprecating humor, it might be very different than if you're laughing about other people or if you are, I don't know.

[00:29:06] Sheri: Well, I think actually you've gotta go back. We are a storytelling species. it was, it was actually pointed out to me by the trainer, Tom Short. This kind of a four steps to the story. So if I'm telling a joke, you know, you, you're building up, you're building up just to release it. And what you're trying to do is build up the tension, then let people release it. And that's what the laugh is. The laugh is the release of the tension of the joke. And usually it's through some kind of distraction or some unexpected outcome, as it were. And I think it's playing with language, you are playing with words because you're catching somebody out because you have a different meaning of the word. Or maybe you have the same word spelled different way used in a different context, but used in this context. It'll be funny here because people aren't expecting it, and it's about surprising people.

[00:29:51] So building up the tension, surprising them, letting it go. And that laughter lets that stress out, that let, lets that tension out. And I think it takes [00:30:00] more tension out of you than it, than you had, than it puts in. So yes, you have to ratchet up the tension, you get it out. But when you let go of the laughter, you get letting go of more than just the one bit of tension you let go of more.

[00:30:10] Maybe that's why it's better for you.

[00:30:13] Ninna: I don't know, have you watched Hannah Gatsby's Nanette Comedy special?

[00:30:16] Sheri: No.

[00:30:16] Ninna: On Netflix

[00:30:17] Sheri: I never get the remote control of my house.

[00:30:19] Ninna: Okay. You should, I think it's amazing. I'm not going to use spoilers much here. Almost none. But one of the things that they say that's exactly what you were saying. Now you build the tension and that that building the tension and releasing doesn't allow the full story to be told because then you have to cut it so people laugh and how then that connection and the power of telling the whole story can be lost in comedy.

[00:30:51] Sheri: When you're telling the story, when you're delivering the line, the more, the bigger the laugh, the more buildup you can have. But you can't spend a lot of time building up something and just get a little bit of a hehehe at the end.

[00:31:02] Because people wanted that tension release and they didn't get it. It's, you know, finding a nice balance and it's actually an art.

[00:31:08] It's harder than it sounds, but when it works and sometimes it lands and the joke clans and the audience is laughing, that's a good moment. It's a good moment of affirmation because everybody's there willingly and they're laughing and they're responding well, so it's, maybe it's that instant feedback that's the hit.

[00:31:29] Ninna: Yeah. And then I also wonder if part of it, both as a comedian performer, although I don't have that experience, but also in being there in a live comedy show is the laughing with others and that social element of this is happening together.

[00:31:47] And I think that togetherness and particularly the power of laughing with others, I think has a huge effect on wellbeing.

[00:31:55] Sheri: We've seen some amazing performances with some amazing people and [00:32:00] it's like, wow.

[00:32:00] Ninna: If you were thinking about everything you learned in your life, and in laughing and comedy and humor, what would be your top recommendation for others?

[00:32:12] Sheri: Oh gosh. I guess it's, you know, try to laugh at yourself first. Even when I'm doing something stupid, it's more likely to happen driving than any place else. But whatever it is, I can laugh at myself a lot more and I forgive myself a lot more. So perhaps laugh at yourself more. Forgive yourself more. Because you know what, sometimes I feel like people think I'm one of the most evil people on the planet. It's not true, they don't know me. They would know better if they did. So whether people like you or don't like you, it doesn't really matter. That is to say you're gonna find your tribe, you're gonna find your people.

[00:32:44] So be happy in your own skin and try to laugh more at yourself. And you can do that more if you don't expect yourself to be perfect all the time. You know, wabi-sabi, perfect imperfection. I love it.

[00:32:55] Ninna: What a great way to end this episode. Perfect imperfection. That's exactly it.

Outro

[00:33:02] If you like the Fat Psychologist Podcast, follow me wherever you listen or on Instagram. I am actively looking for sponsors, so feel free to contact me. You can find information about me and the podcast on my website, thefatpsychologist.com.

[00:33:19] This episode was edited and presented by Ninna Makrinov, and this series was created with the help of Manish Verma.

Show Notes